not your typical annihilatrix ([info]furiosity) wrote,
@ 2008-03-19 09:27:00
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Current mood: uncomfortable
Current music:Zемфира - Повесица
Entry tags:lj

фонарь, веревка, лестница
Hmm, hmm. So I read the interview with Anton Nosik yesterday after someone on my flist linked to it. This morning, I read a translation of the interview.

Um. They sound rather different to me. If I were to read just the English text, and if I weren't Russian, I would be as Shocked and Outraged as everybody else. The translator took it upon themselves to embellish the text.

This is what I read in the Russian version:

- So you're sure that the boycott won't happen?

- No, I won't say that. Because anyone can create a few hundred sockpuppet accounts in LJ, then update their journals with: "On 21st March, I will be silent in protest". After that you, the journalists, will have the ability to list several hundred usernames who were silent that day. And then write, "And this is just the tip of the iceberg!"
This is what the translation says:
- So you're sure there will be no boycott?

- No, I didn't say that. Because any person can create several hundred fake LJ accounts, comment in them that on the 21st of march I will be silent in protest. Then you journalists can quote those fake users and list the names of those that were silent that day. And add a cute catchprase like "that's just the top of the iceberg"
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. ;) So, uh, I have a problem with the translation. I don't have time to provide an alternative translation (ETA: OK, I cave, I cave. Below the cut is the article, translated as I am reading it. Lunch hours are for losers anyway.) and I don't have time or patience for the inevitable accusations of "YOU SUPPORT TEH EB1L OPPRESS0RZ!!11"

Those who want a cave may have one

Anton Nosik, the leader of SUP, explained to our correspondent, what is preventing SUP from revoking the decision that discriminates against users who joined LJ after March 12th.

Q: Those users who are unhappy that the right to the so-called Basic Account is now only available to bloggers registered prior to March 12th of this year, are calling for a boycott of your service. How massive is this boycott likely to be?

A: Of the LJ authors whom I read, the people I have friended and the people who comment in my journal, I don't know anyone who's planning to participate in the boycott. I don't even know any people who take such an initiative seriously. So there's a basis for suggesting that the initiative is marginal, like those that have been proposed previously. It's like the call to phone all the advertisers of the US LJ and demand that they remove their ads.

Q: Did they phone them all?

A: Of course not. Where would one find people stupid enough to call serious companies? It's one thing to call a newspaper in hopes that it'll make you famous on its pages. But a company... They'd just get asked: "Who are you? Why should I listen to you?"

Q: So you're sure that the boycott won't happen?

A: No, I won't say that. Because anyone can create a few hundred sockpuppet accounts in LJ, then update their journals with: "On 21st March, I will be silent in protest". After that you, the journalists, will have the ability to list several hundred usernames who were silent that day. And then write, "And this is just the tip of the iceberg!"

Q: So in your opinion, LJ users don't have any real reason for outrage.

A: At first let's establish what constitutes a Basic account. Back in the day, these accounts were the main offering on LJ. Because the creators were poor and didn't have money to expand. And simply because LJ was not a business -- it was a students' hobby. Back then, users were told flat-out: "Even if you pay, you are not getting anything extra for it. Payment to use LJ is a donation. Like the project? Donate." This model was active from 1999 to 2005. Basic accounts are a legacy of this model and the mentality connected to it -- a part of which is the belief that banners are evil.

Since then, things have happened -- to LiveJournal, and to people with this mentality. Compared to the functionality of the improved Paid account, the functionality of a Basic account from 1999 looks rather prehistoric. To offer this anachronism to new users, I think, is completely unnecessary. Kind of like mobile phones from the early 90s.

Q: But there are people who don't want a Smart Phone, but want the most primitive method of communication at the minimal price... Let's say I want to start an LJ blog, but hate ads being a part of our life and I have no money for a Paid account. I'm out of luck?

A: Today you won't be able to start an LJ blog. Just like you won't at mail.ru, at Google, at Yahoo!. There is no service currently in existence that, without being a charity, refuses to make money -- thanks to user payment and thanks to ad placement alike. This is normal: you don't go into a shop asking for free goods...

Q: So your service is the last in the world that's refusing to be charitable?

A: In truth, it is not LJ that has refused to be charitable by providing Basic accounts, but the user. In the last two years, Basic accounts are registered by about 10% of new users. Additionally, a rather significant portion of these newly registered accounts are so-called sockpuppets, created by existing users for the purposes of spamming, littering the Yandex search database, and leaving the sorts of comments that lead to banning or suspension. In other words, there is practically no regular demand for Basic accounts; the asset's non-liquid. So we took it off the shelf. Current Plus users are not forbidden from reverting to the primitive Basic versions (if they suddenly go mad and decide they want a [insert whatever car model is considered the crappiest in your locale] instead of a Mercedes.

Q: So why don't you just let your new users go mad if they wish to?

A: I think it's necessary to give them that ability, though since the time the change was made, there hasn't been a single actual person who said that his individual right to using a Basic account has been violated. However, I believe that it's not worth it to forbid bloggers who come to LJ after March 12th from changing their Paid and Plus accounts to Basic. I hope that we will make the appropriate correction. However, this depends not on me, but on the collective decision by the company's management.

Q: When could such a decision be taken?

A: That's where we have a problem. In these current conditions of blackmail, the company's hands are tied.

Q: Why?

A: Let's say I tell you, the journalist, politely: "I think you put an extra comma here." Your normal reaction: "Yes, you're right..." or: "Let's ask the editor..." But if I show up here and say: "Hey you, get rid of that comma, or I'mma break your face!" Would you really check the comma placement, after that?

In a situation where people are trying to blackmail and intimidate us, threatening to destroy our business, there are business reasons not to reward this sort of behaviour. This isn't just the psychology of someone who becomes more stubborn the more they're pushed. The issue is that at no point in the history of any successful business, success was not reached by bowing to aggressive, unfriendly force. No decision -- even the most correct one -- should be taken under duress.

It would probably be right to reevaluate the [ToS] passage regarding March 12th in the following few days. But from the point of view of sound corporate politics, we'll have to wait for the boycott. Let it pass. So that the topic of public outrage, threats, and intimidation can be closed. And then we can discuss the problem thoroughly.

By the way, this is not the first call for an LJ boycott that I've heard in the last few years.

Q: How effective are these calls?

A: So effective that in the first year of our work with LJ (October 2006 to the end of 2007), the userbase (which was being persuaded not to go to LJ because it was "Kremlin" and had "bloody KGB tactics") grew to twice its size: from 700 thousand to nearly 1.5 million.

The LJ userbase is divided into three groups. There's the silent majority, who use LJ for their own needs and don't care who and where created and maintains this resource, with what money, and why. There's also the "positive minority" (in the Russian segment, about 7-10%) These people like LJ, they find it useful, and they want it to grow. They help us, which includes constructive criticism, thanks to which we, by the way, correct mistakes we make. And there's a third category of people. They constantly, throughout the history of LJ's existence, come forward with loud initiatives whose purpose is to harm LJ and its creators, to bankrupt them, to ruin their reputation. For the most part, these people are driven by a need for attention, and that need is always validated.

Their rhetoric is the same, regardless of whether they write in English in California or in Russian in Moscow. At one time, these people demanded the resignation of Brad Fitzpatrick, when he was the sole owner of LJ. They demanded that everyone phone every advertiser working with LJ and threaten their reputation, if the advertiser doesn't stop placing their ads in LJ. They demanded to get rid of every new addition to LJ. They called users to switch to competing platforms, first for this reason, then for that.

It's understandable that journalists want a sensational story. An LJ scandal is a sensational story. Nobody is interested in writing about the many mistakes we've corrected in LJ, how many improvements we've made, how much time and effort was spent on fixing errors and introducing new functions.

The administration cancelled or corrected their decisions, published apologies, reinstated accounts blocked due to a lack of foresight, introduced corrections to the ToU... Anything can be reformed, with constructive dialogue.

-----------------------------------------

Nosik is certainly being blasé, but contempt? KGB? Oppression? I don't know. It doesn't sound like that to me. Russians in general tend to be more direct in speech (and use stronger language) than English-speaking Westerners are used to. Translating a Russian interview into English directly will make pretty much any Russian sound like a complete dickwad, because cultural expectations are completely different. It just really frustrates me that people are not taking into account that we're dealing with a different culture here, not just a different company. Business and economics are built on pretty much the same principles the world over, but they are never divorced from culture.

At any rate, if my side is going to deliberately manipulate language in a translation to make the "other" side look even worse than they look already (and don't get me wrong; I'm not making excuses for SUP's idiotic business decisions), then I don't want to support my side. Aren't we "let my LJs go" people supposed to be the honest folks, here? ETA: The original translator in no way intended to be dishonest; I was wrong about that. I'm glad I was, and I have offered an apology.

I'm not going to participate in the boycott. Because interview or no interview, whether you believe the translated version or find someone unbiased to translate for you, LiveJournal will do as it likes, whether you're a paid user, a permanent account holder, or an early adopter. The message is pretty clear, guys: if you don't like it, leave. And I don't think that message is going to change no matter what we do.


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(328 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]grrliz
2008-03-19 01:41 pm UTC (link)
I think it's funny that people think a one day boycott will have any affect on the situation.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]elizardbits
2008-03-19 04:54 pm UTC (link)
I think it's funny that people think a one day boycott will have any affect in ANY situation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]butterfly, 2008-03-19 06:29 pm UTC (Expand)
not really a "boycott"? - [info]featherofeeling, 2008-03-19 07:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: not really a "boycott"? - [info]grrliz, 2008-03-19 07:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: not really a "boycott"? - [info]featherofeeling, 2008-03-19 08:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]measi, 2008-03-19 07:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]featherofeeling, 2008-03-19 08:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]measi, 2008-03-19 09:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]featherofeeling, 2008-03-19 09:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]essie007, 2008-03-20 03:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]measi, 2008-03-20 03:53 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]essie007, 2008-03-20 06:12 am UTC (Expand)
Attempted civil discourse from a potential "idiot" - [info]umilingual, 2008-03-20 07:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]masteroftrouble, 2008-03-20 03:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]riegel, 2008-03-20 07:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]leenielou, 2008-03-20 09:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]grrliz, 2008-03-20 12:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bzzinglikeneon, 2008-03-20 03:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-20 03:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bzzinglikeneon, 2008-03-20 03:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-20 03:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bzzinglikeneon, 2008-03-20 03:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-20 03:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bzzinglikeneon, 2008-03-20 03:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-20 03:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bzzinglikeneon, 2008-03-20 03:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]automaticdoor, 2008-03-21 04:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]automaticdoor, 2008-03-21 04:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dcwash, 2008-03-22 01:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]automaticdoor, 2008-03-22 01:16 am UTC (Expand)

[info]sesheta_66
2008-03-19 01:48 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the glimpse into the 'real' translation. Interesting how a few words here or there can change the implied intent, hmm?

I'm not participating either. I fail to see how anything will be achieved by it. I'll admit when I upgraded from basic to the account with ads, it made things more time-consuming to load, but it was a personal choice. I wanted more features, and the ads were the way to do it. And the paid account (gifted to me) is great with the extra features. It's like anything else in life. You get what you pay for.

Disappointed that I can't create a new basic account? Sure. But whatever. Nothing in life is free. Would have been nice to have some advance warning, but then again I suppose there would have been a surge of new accounts created 'just in case'. I can see why they wouldn't want to do that. As has been said many times, they're a business and they made a business decision.

(Reply to this)


[info]metal_dog5
2008-03-19 01:49 pm UTC (link)
Interesting, to say the least.

It just really frustrates me that people are not taking into account that we're dealing with a different culture here, not just a different company.

*nods* I agree. It's very easy for people to overlook &/or ignore that aspect.

(Reply to this)


[info]littlearsonist
2008-03-19 02:04 pm UTC (link)
As I told Kate, if the new changes are that bothering, take your business to an American run company. I am bothered by some of the goings on, yes. I do not think that a boycott is going to solve the problem. If it does, I think it will only be a temporary band-aid to a larger problem - but we're the ones who see it as such. SUP doesn't, or we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now. I don't know that I'd want to give my business to someone who only took my input into consideration under duress, anyway.

(Reply to this)


[info]tulimeeria
2008-03-19 02:21 pm UTC (link)
But I thought the point of the boycott was to make the daily-posts statistic take a plunge downwards. Creating sockpuppet accounts wouldn't help there anyway, would it? I think I'll take part in any case, though. *is idealistic*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]grrliz
2008-03-19 02:44 pm UTC (link)
I thought the point of the boycott was to make the daily-posts statistic take a plunge downwards

What's the point of that, though? It will provide a day's worth of statistical aberration and nothing more, considering most people will probably pick up the slack in their posting habits over the next few days.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]tulimeeria, 2008-03-19 02:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]grrliz, 2008-03-19 03:26 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]kayen
2008-03-19 02:28 pm UTC (link)
I think many people are perfectly aware that we're dealing with a different culture. However, SUP still needs to take into account that they've bought an American company with a primarily 'U.S.-centric' userbase, not a Russian blogging platform. It would have been totally different if LJ were Russian to begin with, but it wasn't, and that's what causes a 'culture clash'. Ignoring the users who, in many cases, have been here for years and years, is not the way to solve that conflict. All companies must adapt to new markets. It's suicidal for companies seeking to expand to demand that the market adapt to _them_.

I also hope that people keep in mind that we're dealing with a translation. When I read it, I took into account the cultural aspect and I from your example, I don't think my opinion of Nosik's views would be altered by a more balanced translation. I don't object to the way he expresses things, because I can't judge that based on this translation, but to his basic views on how business should be conducted.

Also, I don't think the boycott is going to change anything. At least not in and of itself. However, I do feel a strong urge to somehow tell SUP exactly what I think of them. Many protests throughout history have not been about winning the war, but about voicing outrage. That's important too.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]etrangere
2008-03-19 02:36 pm UTC (link)
From LJ stats

United States - 3,171,380
Russian Federation - 548,036
Canada - 278,670
United Kingdom - 251,398
Australia - 119,209
Ukraine - 71,288
Singapore - 56,984
Philippines - 48,419
Germany - 46,895
Finland - 37,961
Japan - 30,771
Netherlands - 24,454
Belarus - 22,715
Israel - 19,705
Brazil - 17,903

Sure, there are more American accounts than from any other country. But 'US-centric' doesn't cover it either. They are significant population of users from a lot of countries. I think SUP should take that into account rather than only the American ones.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]kayen, 2008-03-19 02:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]etrangere, 2008-03-19 02:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kayen, 2008-03-19 03:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kayen, 2008-03-19 03:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]la_vie_noire, 2008-03-21 12:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cynonymous, 2008-03-19 03:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]etrangere, 2008-03-19 03:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matgb, 2008-03-19 09:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 02:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kayen, 2008-03-19 03:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 03:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]umilingual, 2008-03-20 07:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-03-20 09:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-20 10:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-03-20 10:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-20 10:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-03-20 10:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-20 10:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-03-20 10:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-20 10:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athenazandrite, 2008-03-19 06:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kerryblaze, 2008-03-19 04:24 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]silyara
2008-03-19 02:31 pm UTC (link)
I'll have no choice but to participate as I'm traveling most of the day. But that's just a day I am happening not to be able to post, not a deliberate choice to shake my first at them.

(Reply to this)


[info]ackonrad
2008-03-19 02:41 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for linking to the original. I'll read it tonight and try to find the differences by myself. I have no idea who made the translation and how much it's exaggerated, but I'd really be very glad to find out if the guy didn't say that the customers have to shut and not complain.

(Reply to this)


[info]snegurochka_lee
2008-03-19 02:41 pm UTC (link)
Russians in general tend to be more direct in speech (and use stronger language) than English-speaking Westerners are used to.

I was hoping you might weigh in on that, so thank you. I have a decent degree of experience with Russia and Russian 'directness', but not to nearly the degree you do, and that was my thought as well. I sort of laughed through that transcription of the interview with him, because he does sound like a giant dickwad, but in Russian it would sound totally normal. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]tatly
2008-03-19 07:58 pm UTC (link)
i have to say that for me and my friends it sounded rather nasty in Russian too .

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]imkalena, 2008-03-19 08:54 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ithiliana
2008-03-19 02:42 pm UTC (link)
Thank you thank you thank you! A translation is ALWAYS just that, a translation, and while I appreciate you don't have time to redo all of it, I appreciate what you say here (which confirms what I thought).

Thank you!

(Reply to this)


[info]sorion
2008-03-19 02:51 pm UTC (link)
No matter the translation, his interview is in no way professional, but insulting.

And, well... some things we actually can take action against. I don't want to leave, I won't leave if I can at all manage it, but I will have my displeasure heard.

There have been problems with LJ before, and some of them were actually solved. We can solve this one, too. Hushing up the search categories in the way they were doing it is not even legal...
With every power shift, LJ seems to think they can sneak stuff by us. It's never worked before, it won't work now. Online press is on the case, already. And the reports are not exactly in favour of LJ.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]furiosity
2008-03-19 02:59 pm UTC (link)
his interview is in no way professional, but insulting
Yeah, I can appreciate that point of view as someone who lives in North America, and I can see why you think so. But by Russian standards, that interview is informal and its tone, while somewhat dismissive, is nothing out of the ordinary for something disseminated via an online publication. Culture is the key word here.

I'm no happier with LJ's recent shenanigans than you are. But I am not going to support any action that grows out of mistranslated and misinterpreted articles being blown out of proportion.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]pir8fancier, 2008-03-19 03:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sorion, 2008-03-19 04:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]spuzz, 2008-03-19 04:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 05:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]spuzz, 2008-03-19 05:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]miep, 2008-03-20 11:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]uniquewonders, 2008-03-19 05:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 06:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]averysmallthing, 2008-03-19 09:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 10:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]averysmallthing, 2008-03-19 10:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 10:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cardigrl, 2008-03-20 02:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]loqia, 2008-03-20 03:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sorion, 2008-03-20 06:26 am UTC (Expand)
My Law & Order Degree, Let Me Show You It - [info]loqia, 2008-03-20 06:53 am UTC (Expand)
Re: My Law & Order Degree, Let Me Show You It - [info]sorion, 2008-03-20 08:00 am UTC (Expand)

[info]anthimaeria
2008-03-19 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the clarification. I have been vacillating on this issue. Like most everyone else, I was Shocked and Outraged by the translation, but what you're saying puts it in a different light. I did suspect there was some cultural dissonance, as IMHO Russians tend to speak more bluntly than Westerners, but I was reluctant to say anything as I am not Russian myself (except by partial heritage)and didn't want to get into some sort of OMG!ur-so-prejudiced spat over my own observation.

For me, I think Friday will just be business as usual. If I have something to say, I'll say it, if not,I won't post. I've always been uncomfortable with mass movements.

(Reply to this)


[info]eleanorb
2008-03-19 03:01 pm UTC (link)
Russians in general tend to be more direct in speech (and use stronger language) than English-speaking Westerners are used to.

Yes, exactly. I think it's mostly US-English speakers that are having a problem. Brits, Aussie and Kiwis I've spoken to have all made the same comments as you. We're so used to our English comments being mis-interpreted that we can understand translations will fare even worse.

(Reply to this)


[info]skuf
2008-03-19 03:12 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for an alternate view on the translation!

(Reply to this)


[info]tacky_tramp
2008-03-19 03:18 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this. I was quite puzzled by the translations I saw floating around and was wondering about the original Russian. I mean, SUP may be evil ex-communist overlords, but they're also business people. :P

(Reply to this)


[info]irrevokable
2008-03-19 03:40 pm UTC (link)
thanks for the translation, f. it definitely puts a new light on the situation and I've been on the fence with the whole thing since I first heard about it. I can see what they're trying to do with the strike but for me personally one day of ignoring LJ just doesn't seem like it would be all that productive in the long run. :\

(Reply to this)


[info]grrliz
2008-03-19 03:41 pm UTC (link)
LOL I just found out people were originally translating the article using Babelfish and not by anyone who was actually capable of translating for tone and meaning. Eeeh... yeah.

(Reply to this)


[info]ani_bester
2008-03-19 03:42 pm UTC (link)
HA! You know I joked in Eska_Rina's LJ that I kinda hoped it was a translation issue, and LO it was.

I figured base don all the times I was inadvertently rude in japanese just because I said No the wrong way or something 0.o

So yeah, I can see this as a mistranslation and YAY it's nice to know there is a language that can be translated into American English and sound more insulting than Ameircan English. I thought the USA had cournered the market on rudest/most blunt language *L*

Thanks for this!

I still wanna make Soviet Russia jokes though. . . jsut for funnies sake ^^'''

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]imkalena
2008-03-19 08:59 pm UTC (link)
After reading the "nice" translation, without even seeing the more slanted one, I finally know why "In Soviet Russia" jokes EXIST. The man seems awfully sure he doesn't have to take the interests and concerns of his users into account. He honestly sounds like he's not used to dealing with people who have several other options.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]askani, 2008-03-20 12:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]iamthemurderer, 2008-03-20 02:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eska_rina, 2008-03-20 12:31 am UTC (Expand)

[info]pir8fancier
2008-03-19 03:53 pm UTC (link)
Also, regarding this interview, is he stupid or what? Didn't he realize that a bastard translation of that interview would come out and make him look like an idiot. He's has an internet business. One that has the capability of posting that inaccuracies of that interview all over the world in, what, five minutes? Clearly, the head of SUP is ridiculously naieve.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]furiosity
2008-03-19 08:14 pm UTC (link)
So he's stupid not to have assumed that LJ users would run off half-cocked armed with embellished translations? Well, considering that the first reports of the interview were relying on Babelfished translations, maybe he IS stupid not to have assumed that. That doesn't say much in favour of the LJ userbase, though. :\

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]pir8fancier, 2008-03-19 08:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 08:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pir8fancier, 2008-03-19 08:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 08:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pir8fancier, 2008-03-19 09:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 10:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pir8fancier, 2008-03-19 10:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-20 03:01 am UTC (Expand)

[info]karaz
2008-03-19 03:54 pm UTC (link)
Translating a Russian interview into English directly will make pretty much any Russian sound like a complete dickwad, because cultural expectations are completely different.

Omg, so true. When I was working for a certain insurance company, there were a large number of Russians that called from a particular state. Whenever the older people called they nearly always came off rude. Very blunt too. It took me about three phone calls to figure out it was a cultural difference and they were rarely (well, they were calling ____ insurance, sometimes they had good reason to be pissed off) trying to be offensive.

I had a few ask for me again because I skipped the bullshit and didn't spend my time cross-selling them - even though I got crap for it from my company occasionally. Many of the southern people I worked with were especially offended because it's really at odds with what they were accustomed to - their polite chatter was getting rebuffed. "Omg, how rude?" When clearly the other person was like, "I didn't call for this. I don't care about this! Why can't we just do what I called for!?"

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[info]ruffians
2008-03-19 04:01 pm UTC (link)
I agree.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-03-19 04:27 pm UTC (link)
I read your version of that passage pretty much the same as the other. I'm looking at the meaning rather than the exact words.

It's not bluntness that's the problem. In fact, with the changing of the Basic /Free accounts status, honesty would have been much better.

In the rest of the other translation, it's not the tone that I minded, it's the content. LJ is a really successful social network for me, and I am happy with the new features added in the first 100 days of SUP ownership.

However, what I think he doesn't understand is that the constructive critics are often the same people as the angry ones. Especially given the history of the owners of the system making hidden changes for the worse, such as disabling Basic accounts and deleting vaguely controversial interests from the top listing (why guys? depression? fanfiction?). The ones who lash out are the ones who care the most: we're not trying to blackmail or extort from SUP, we want them to pay attention and fly right!

I don't know if the content strike will make any difference, it may make them dig their heels in more. My teenage son is like that: the more you pressure him, the more he resists. But when the alternative is doing nothing, it's worth doing this, for ourselves at least.

And yes, I have accounts on InsaneJournal and JournalFen. But the majority of my friends are here and I'm not going to lose them just because the owners are being dumb.

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[info]furiosity
2008-03-19 04:46 pm UTC (link)
What part of the content doesn't meet with your approval? I mean, I think he's full of shit about Basic accounts being prehistoric and that there is no service where you can blog with no ads (of course there are: Blogger, Wordpress) but specifically, what part of the article is making you upset?

I think he doesn't understand is that the constructive critics are often the same people as the angry ones
But he never said that he objects to anger. He said he objects to people whose motivation is to harm LJ rather than help build it, to people who protest in a bid for attention rather than because they want LJ to improve. I don't think this is an unreasonable stance...

we're not trying to blackmail or extort from SUP, we want them to pay attention and fly right!
Yeah. Unfortunately, I think our voices are being effectively silenced by those who just want to spew vitriol at everything vaguely official, find offence in every little thing, and offer no constructive suggestion. Because you can't say there are no such people. And the article does NOT say that everyone who is angry is clearly trying to undermine LJ. That's my point. He thinks the strike was instigated by people who just want attention (the same people who instigated similar motions in the past), but he doesn't say that he thinks EVERYONE who supports the strike is trying to undermine LJ -- that people are choosing to take his words personally is another story.

I don't know if the content strike will make any difference, it may make them dig their heels in more.
But the article says they're going to discuss the decision after the strike. He says in the article that he believes it would be for the best to allow users the option of Basic. It's right there; why do you think it'll make them dig their heels in? He just said that they're going to wait for the strike to be over and then they'll go back to discussing the issue.

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(no subject) - [info]msilverstar, 2008-03-19 05:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]foxfirefey, 2008-03-19 05:52 pm UTC (Expand)
Indeed! - (Anonymous), 2008-03-19 05:55 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ignazwisdom
2008-03-19 04:31 pm UTC (link)
Hi, I came in from someone else's link and I just want to say that I appreciate having an alternative take on the language of that interview--although I wouldn't default to assuming that the translator was deliberately manipulating the language to make SUP look bad. It could just be a bad (or simply a different) translation. We're all pretty desperate for some kind of communication from SUP right now--ANY communication--and I don't fault people for taking Russian interviews and trying to translate them into English when Russian interviews are the only place we can actually hear from the people making these decisions.

The message is pretty clear, guys: if you don't like it, leave. And I don't think that message is going to change no matter what we do.

I completely agree. But--wouldn't you say that for a business model, there's kind of a degree of contempt in that? I mean, does it get any more contemptuous than "if you don't like it, GTFO"? Even considering the cultural differences, Nosik isn't doing much to change that message.

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[info]furiosity
2008-03-19 04:37 pm UTC (link)
It could just be a bad (or simply a different) translation.
A bad translation generally doesn't add sarcasm where there was none. I agree that I may be wrong about the translator's intent, however.

wouldn't you say that for a business model, there's kind of a degree of contempt in that?
No, not really. It's like "no shoes, no shirt? no service." I see it on shop doors all the time... It's completely arbitrary to require people to wear shoes or shirts -- neither are required by law. But shops can and do refuse service to the shoeless and the shirtless, and no one pickets...

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(no subject) - [info]ignazwisdom, 2008-03-19 06:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]furiosity, 2008-03-19 06:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ignazwisdom, 2008-03-19 07:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]msilverstar, 2008-03-19 04:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ignazwisdom, 2008-03-19 06:15 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]etrangere
2008-03-19 04:40 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the alternative translation!

I'm still not sure what to think. Seems that even with a better tone he's still mischaracterizing a lot some of his critics. And the part about blackmailing is still infuriating.

(Reply to this)


[info]joesther
2008-03-19 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Business and economics are built on pretty much the same principles the world over, but they are never divorced from culture.

That's such a valid, important point. I'm Israeli and we have a tendency to be blunt as well. It takes some practice, living in the US and adjusting for the dominant culture, but in time, it "takes." If this guy doesn't even live here and sees no need to adjust, of course you're going to see his culture in his speech. S'just the way it is.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]luckimunki
2008-03-30 09:48 am UTC (link)
If he's running a business whose largest source of clientèle is in the US, he should learn the difference and see the need to adjust the way he speaks to a Western audience.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]joesther, 2008-03-30 06:16 pm UTC (Expand)

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